Conversations with a local Pastor #1
This post addresses the first of three issues that were brought up by the pastor of a local born-again church. I thought that it might be useful to share them with you, since he found it important enough to bring them up during our conversation. Some of the other items that we discussed during our two and half hour meeting were subjects for which I had already created blog posts! So, I will not recreate them again at this time. I hope you find the next three post valuable in your attempts to share your LDS beliefs with others.
One of the things that the pastor stated was that our belief in apostles and prophets today is not scriptural because, according to him, apostles were established as a one-time use and then discontinued.
His claims for the discontinuing of prophets was found in Heb 1:1-2; "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son." But the LDS people believe this scripture just as it reads with no additional interpretations needed. God has spoken by the prophets and God has spoken to us by the mouth of his Son, but this doesn't mean that God will not continue to speak by the prophets or by those apostles whom he called to lead his church. The Pastor's claim for no more apostles had no scriptural reference! He informed me that since Paul and John called no more apostles, "God meant for them to be used as a transition from Old law to New law." He continued saying,"once the apostles established the Bible and set pastors in churches there was no more need for apostles!" The Pastor could not give any scriptural basis for his belief.
The LDS people "believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth." (The sixth article of faith.)
What do the scriptures teach about prophets and apostles?
No believer in the scriptures can doubt that the Lord used prophets to teach the people of God through out the Old Testament, they conveyed the mind and will of the Lord! We can see how important they were to the work of God by reading Amos 3:7: "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." They were the organizational heads of the church of God, such examples can be seen in Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc.... During the life of Christ, he came to fulfill the scriptures! So during his life he would give new commands to his church, such as a new sacrifice for sin (Christ), a new day to worship (Sunday instead of Saturday), new dietary laws (leaving the law of Moses but commanding not to be Drunk etc..), and yes even new leadership for his church! (moving single prophets to a collection of apostles!)
Luke 6:13 says "He called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles." Again in Mark 3:14-15 "and he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, and to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils." Why did Jesus ordain these apostles? The scriptures teach: "and no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God"(Heb 5:4). So the apostles were ordained with power to perform all the miracles that were needed and to establish the church through their preaching.
Did Jesus mean that no one else should ever be called to the apostleship as my pastor friend suggested?
Judas was one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus, and then committed suicide, this left only eleven witnesses of Christ. If the pastor was right this would have been a good place to see a decline in the number of apostles, since they were to be phased out! But the record in Acts tells a different story. "These men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection" (Acts 1:21-22). Acts 1:23-24,26 "And they appointed two,..Barsabas,...and Matthias. and they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, and they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." This was of course to fulfill the scriptures that another would take Judas' place. So, this of course would return the number of apostles to twelve, and then if the pastor was right from this point on no more apostles would be called!
But the scriptures are in complete disagreement with my friend on this point because Matthias was not the only apostle called after Judas. The apostle James, the brother of John, was also killed (Acts 12:1-2). In Acts 15:13 we see another apostle called James instructing the church. Fortunately, Paul informs us that this James the apostle was "the Lord's brother,"(Gal 1:19) he was called after James' (the brother of John) death. Speaking of Paul, we know that he was ordained as an apostle at the same time as Barnabas. In Acts 13:1-3 "there were in the church...certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas...and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work where unto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away." Acts 14:14 which shows us they were ordained Apostles. These scriptural examples clearly show that apostles were meant to be called to replace the apostles which had passed on. But where is the scripture that says no more apostles will be called to lead the church? Or should the example of Acts 1:21-26 not be followed anymore? The answer: there is no scripture repealing the use of Apostles.
The scriptures instead show many examples of men being called to continue the office of apostle. Paul (one of the apostles called after the original twelve) tells us how the Lord had organized his church many times, "God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers." Eph 2:20 "(ye) are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Or Eph 4:11-13 "and he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teacher; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; Till we all come in the unity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man."
The Lord instructed his apostles after his resurrection to " go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature"(Mark16:15). This command of the Lord has never been rescinded or changed according to the scriptures, and by the examples of the additional apostles who were called, such as Paul, they have continued to heed this command of the Lord!
The Pastor was correct that the apostles were killed off and John was the last recorded apostle of the Bible. The LDS believe that this led the Christian churches from a "unity of faith" to an "apostasy" (lack of direct communication from God; no more apostles or prophets). The Mormon people believe that God would have to once again establish apostles and prophets in the Latter-days.
The LDS people are among a slim group of Christian churches that even believe in the scriptural necessity of having apostles to guide the Lord's church. Since the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the Lord has had apostles in it. D&C 20:2-3 informs us that "Joseph Smith, Jun ...was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church; And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church." From the early days of the Mormon church until today the Lord has continued to call a quorum (in other words a group) of twelve "called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world-thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling."(D&C107:23)
During my conversation with the pastor he asked me "how could you be a Mormon, coming from the Bible belt of the South?" That question is one of the easiest I have ever had to answer: It is because it is the Lord's church upon this earth, and it continues to follow his pattern of having apostles and prophets etc... who lead and guide his church during these dark and final days upon the earth before his coming!
The question I asked the pastor that I never got an answer to was: how can you claim to believe the Bible alone for your authority and not have apostles and prophets leading the church as the Bible shows you should?
