An LDS View of Capital Punishment!

Recently I had a chance to enter an online chat with a group of LDS people. The purpose of the group was to talk about modern topics according to an LDS perspective. On entering this dialogue I assumed that the viewpoints would all be relatively the same. This turned out not to be the case!

Official View of the LDS Church

The topic of discussion was on Capital Punishment, which I thought would be an interesting topic to share with you, the reader. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' official view on capital punishment is found at: http://newsroom.lds.org/official-statement/capital-punishment  The statement reads as follows: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regards the question of whether and in what circumstances the state should impose capital punishment as a matter to be decided solely by the prescribed processes of civil law. We neither promote nor oppose capital punishment."

This statement shows two things: first the LDS Church believes the civil authorities should decide if capital punishment should be used. Second, the Church is not going to promote or oppose such laws! As good citizens it is up to us to vote in laws and enforcers of those laws. We are fortunate as an LDS people because the scriptures have much to say on capital punishment. (In this post I will only be referring to the capital punishment of murderers.)

The Arguments that Spawned this Discussion

The LDS group I talked with used some scriptures out of context, to show why they believed murderers should not be killed. They used Ezek 33:11 "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked," and Ex 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill." For Ezek 33:11 this scripture does not show that the murderer ought not to die, it just states that the Lord does not delight in their death! As for Ex 20:13, the reader would only need to read 25 more verses to see that "thou shalt not kill" doesn't refer to capital punishment. This verse is in fact giving the command not to murder and if you do Ex 21:12 says "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death." 

What the Old Testament teaches about Capital Punishment

The scriptures are pretty clear and consistent with what the punishment ought to be for murderers.

 Gen 9:6 "whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed."

 Ex 21:12 "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."

Lev 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

Lev 24:21 "And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death."

Num 35:16 "And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murder: the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Num 35:17 "And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Num 35:18 "Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Num 35:30-31 "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death."

The Book of Mormon on Capital Punishment

In fact the other books of scriptures echo what has been stated above.

2 Ne 9:35 "Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die."

Alma 1:13 "And thou hast shed the blood of a righteous man, yea, a man who has done much good among this people; and were we to spare thee his blood would come upon us for vengeance."

Alma 1:18 "And they durst not steal, for fear of the law, for such were punished; neither durst they rob, nor murder, for he that murdered was punished unto death."

Alma 30:10 "But if he murdered he was punished unto death."

Alma 34:11-12 "Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered."

Alma 42:19 "Now, if there was no law given-if a man murdered he should die-would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?"

Doctrine and Covenants on Capital Punishment

In addition to these examples modern day revelation also confirms the fate of murderers. D&C 134:8 teaches   "We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense: that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, in all respects, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed." So what type of punishment would fit the offense for a murderer? D&C 42:19 tells us "And again, I say, thou shalt not kill: but he that killeth shall die." To clarify who should administer the punishment of death in the case of a murderer D&C 42:79 states "And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land." Also consider this point; some people believe that though you should not put a murderer to death for his crimes, it is perfectly right to protect yourself even to the shedding of blood. “We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances…but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded.”(D&C 134:11) If you believe that it is wrong to put a murderer to death after he has committed his crime, then it should be doubly wrong to kill him before he has committed it!

New Testament Does not Rescind Capital Punishment

Paul refers Timothy to the use of civil laws "But we know that the law is good if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers"( 1 Tim 1:8-9) Paul knowing the righteousness of capital punishment made a defense before the civil authorities in his own cases "Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die"(Acts 25:10-11)

Conclusion

With the above scriptures given, I posed a question that has yet to be answered: where in the scripture that says the life of the murderer should be spared?

Some people may try to argue for, the exception to the rule, in the case of murderers. But the scriptures have been very clear and consistent in regards to how God instructs us to punish those who murder!  Some people may believe in prolonging the life of a murderer in hopes that they will repent. But they forget that the final judge (GOD) believes he can better pass judgment on murderers once they have paid the penalty for their crimes....and who are we to deny him that appointment!?!

The Rapture

Many protestant friends of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints want to know if we believe in the rapture of the "church” (Rapture: The catching away of true believers to meet Christ in the air, sometime before the Millennial era). The answer is we do...and we don't! It all depends on what version of the rapture we are talking about.

What are the views of the rapture?

Although many Protestants believe in the “rapture,” many of them view it differently amongst themselves.  (Tribulation:  The last 7 years before the 2^nd coming of Christ.)

1. Pre-tribulation View: belief that the believers of Christ will be caught up before the Great tribulation foretold in the book of Revelation.

2. Mid-tribulation View: belief that the believers will be taken after 3 1/2 years into the Great tribulation.

3. Post-tribulation View:  belief that the believers will be taken after all 7 years of the tribulation have passed.

The word “rapture” is not mentioned in the scriptures. The term comes from a Greek word meaning "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. This is why the LDS people do not use the term rapture when referring to events that surround the second coming of Jesus.

But do the LDS believe in the rapture?

As LDS people we do believe that the scriptures teach true believers will be caught up to meet the Lord when he comes again. Matt 24 is the chapter where the disciples came to Jesus seeking to know when the destruction of the temple would come, the signs of Jesus coming and the end of the world (Matt 24:3). In Matt 24:21-22, Christ tells us that the elect would still be here during the great tribulation, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Christ then goes on to tell about his appearance right after this great tribulation and how all will see him together, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"(Matt 24:29-31).

How will we be raptured?

The Lord informs us how the elect will be gathered from (Matt 24:40-41), "Then shall two be in the field: the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” In the gospel of Luke, Jesus explains the same scenario of two together and one taken, and the Disciples ask Jesus where the one would be taken, "And he said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together"(Luke 17:37). It appears they will be "raptured" up to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul, talking with the Corinthians, explained a mystery relating to how our bodies would be during this rapture transition. "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"(1 Cor 15:50-52). The last trump is related to the resurrection of the dead and the "rapture" of the church, both seem to occur at the same time. During this time those who are alive at the coming of Christ will have their mortal bodies changed. And as the dead will be resurrected to meet Christ in the air, so we that live will be changed to meet with the Saints at Christ’s coming.

Paul explains it to the Thessalonians, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"(1 Thes 4:15-17).

What do modern scriptures say?

Doctrine and Covenants 88:95-99 elaborates on this scene for us;"And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled; And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven- They are Christ's, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God." This makes it very clear that the LDS view of a rapture would go hand in hand with the resurrection of the dead, during the second coming of the Lord.

D&C 109:75 assures us that "when the trump shall sound for the dead, we shall be caught up in the cloud to meet (the Lord), that we may ever be with the Lord." The LDS people do believe in this incredible experience that has been called by our friends "rapture." And we don't believe that it will come before the Lord makes his appearance the second time, but that the rapture will happen at the coming of the Lord.

Would the Lord allow us to suffer wrath?

Some of those who believe in a pre-tribulation view of the rapture claim that the rapture must happen before the great tribulation because the believers are not destined to suffer wrath. A scripture that is often cited is 1 Thes 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath." This usage of 1 Thes 5:9 assumes that the wrath spoken of is the great tribulation. Upon closer examination, we find that the wrath spoken of here has nothing to do with the great tribulation. In fact, the whole verse reads "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"(1 Thes 5:9). We see that the wrath spoken of here is a wrath covered by the atonement of Christ, ie sin and death. This can be seen by the next verse, "who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him"(1 Thes 5:10). Also look at Rom 5:8-9, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Not only do those scriptures show that the wrath is not the great tribulation, but speaking of the great tribulation the Savior taught, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time...And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened"(Matt 24:21-22). Here the Lord tells his disciples that his elect would still be here during the tribulation.

What about the examples of saints being saved from tribulation?

Some have tried to argue that like Noah or Lot were taken out before the wrath of the Lord came upon them. So they reason that the believers of Christ would be raptured before the tribulation began. But this view goes to strengthen the LDS position, because in all these cases the saints were taken before immediate destruction came. So likewise all believers of Christ will remain until his second coming and then they will be raptured right before the immediate destruction of the wicked.

What the scriptures say about tribulation.

Nowhere in the scriptures does Christ mention a coming for his saints before that of his second coming! In Acts 14:22 Paul instructs the saints "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." The promise is not given to members of Christ’s church that they will not have to suffer tribulation but just the opposite is said.

Those who believe that the believers of Christ will for some reason be spared tribulation in this life should reread all that Christ and the New Testament church went through for the gospel’s sake. In fact, in Revelation 13:7 John foresaw the evil powers of the last days had strength "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them." In D&C 63:33-34 the Prophet Joseph saw the events of the Last days "I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man; And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire." 

In regards to the suffering of Christians, Peter tells us "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"(1 Pet 4:16-18)

Conclusion

In short the doctrine of “rapture" is scriptural, and the LDS people do believe in it, though we do not refer to it by that term. We simply call it the second coming of Christ! The LDS people have been instructed to be self-reliant and prepared for all kinds of emergencies, not just the great tribulation. On the other hand, many of our protestant friends believe that the rapture of the "church" will occur sometime before the great tribulation or before many of its great calamities. As a result of believing that they will not endure tribulations, they are also not preparing for those tribulations. So a good question to ask yourself is: who would you rather be with when the tribulation hits the fan, someone who doesn't believe they will be here for it and who hasn't prepared… or the LDS people!?!

  

The Mormon Cult?

The reason that critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints use the term "cult" when referring to the church is because they believe it will scare people away from learning about the Mormons! This tactic of labeling the LDS church as a cult seems to work well on those who are not acquainted with Mormons. It is to the people who have not met Mormons that I write to today!

Most of the time when critics use the term "cult", they do so without giving a definition. This leaves the hearer with the responsibility of determining what a cult is. Members of the LDS church must demand clarification from the critic by requesting that they define the word "cult." On those rare occasions when you can get the critic to define the term "cult", it seems so broad that any religion could fit into the definition of cult.

To show the reader how misleading the term "Cult" is, I will list 10 criteria from one critic who chose to define the term "cult." I will then show from the scriptures how this false standard would prove even the early church of Jesus Christ to be a "Cult"! (Each one of these statements could receive a post of its own, but for sake of space I will try to keep it short.)

Claim #1: Cults claim absolute right to the truth!

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."(John 8:31-32) Then there is John 14:6 where Jesus claims absolute truth through himself "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me." Paul claims absolute truth by forewarning those who will turn from the truth he taught, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."(2 Tim 4:3-4)

 Claim #2: Cults make you feel more special than Non-members!

How much more special could you feel than to be called a son or daughter of God? "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not"(1 Jn 3:1). Or look at Paul's warning to the saints in 2 Cor 6:14, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" See how Paul instructed the saints concerning going to Non-member judges, "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"(1 Cor 6:1-2) The members of the early church sure sound more special than the “non-members.”

Claim #3: Cults frown on expressions of doubt!

James you bad cultist you, why do you talk so bad of those who have doubts? (insert sarcasm here) "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."(Jam 1:6-8) In 1 Tim 2:8 Paul says "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Or look at what Jesus expected of his followers in Luke 12:29-30 "And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things."

Claim #4: Cults expect significant financial contributions!

Thank goodness the Bible never makes us feel guilty for not contributing financial, "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse."(Mal 3:8-10) Those were the good old days, when we were only asked to give 10%. Because anymore would just be asking to much! "And when he was gone forth unto the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."(Luke 10:17, 21) Or look at Acts 4:34-35, "Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."

Claim #5: Cults are reluctant to allow you to leave!

Really! Any church that loves its followers should do all they can to reclaim those who have strayed or are thinking about leaving! Matt 18:12-13, "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them is gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray." Or James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death." You know, I think the critic might be right on this point, a real church should just say good riddance to those who falter in their belief!

Claim #6: Cults expect confession!

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed."(James 5:16) "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 Jn 1:9) Or look at the instruction Peter gave to those who believed his teaching and want salvation, "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you."(Acts 2:37-38)

Claim #7: Cults expect you to be worthy!

Everyone knows that only the biggest of “cults” ask you to be worthy. Just look at the following example:  "As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory."(1 Thes 2:11-12) Or like Paul who told the Colossians in Col 1:10, That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;" Peter chimes in "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."(1 Pet 1:15-16)

Claim #8: Cults claim infallible (perfect) leaders!

This claim is the only directly false claim attributed to the LDS church, because we know that our leaders are human, and so they will be fallible. Yet the early church did claim an infallible leader, Jesus! So once again the test here for cult does fit the early church. The scriptures do teach that we should esteem the leadership highly, just look at 1 Thes 5:12-13 "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake."

Claim #9: Cults keep you so busy you don't have any time, even for your family!

I want to say something sarcastic about this claim, but I can’t. I just don’t see why being busy automatically makes you a “cult.” Look at an example of Jesus from Luke 9:59-60, "And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." Now that is busy! Paul told the Thessalonians how demanding the work of the Lord was in 1 Thes 2:9 "For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preach unto you the gospel of God." 

Claim #10: Cults are works based, not grace based religions!

This also would not apply to Mormons because we believe that we are saved through the grace of Christ. The critic links us to this claim because we believe what the scriptures teach, that you must accompany your faith with works of righteousness! "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace, But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."(Rom 11:6) Paul continues this theme to Titus in Titus 3:8 "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." And look what Paul has to say about those who refuse works, " They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."(Titus 1:16)

It would appear that the critic has incriminated the early church that Christ himself established. This is why the critics are so reluctant to define the term “cult,” because if they define the term it just isn’t as scary! When a Critic of the LDS church throws around a label like “cult,” ask for a definition. Because you never know, they could be defining your beliefs as well! 

Apostasy of the Early Christian Church

Apostasy (the falling away from the faith) is a word used commonly among the LDS people. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the early Christian church went into an apostasy, when they fell away from the teachings of the apostles. When the Apostles were killed because of persecutions, the members and leaders of the churches began to teach different traditions instead of the doctrines they had been taught. This caused the one church to splinter into many different churches according to their doctrinal differences.

Because of the apostasy, the church of Christ had to be restored to earth once again as it had been. The critics of the Mormon Church refuse to believe in an apostasy for two main reasons. First: They believe that the Church as given to the apostles was going to endure forever without an apostasy! Next: They also believe that once someone has received Christ they cannot personally fall away. So to cover both of these topics fairly I have decided to break the apostasy into two parts. This first part will be on the apostasy of the Church, and the next post will be on the apostasy of individuals! 

According to the critic, Matt 16:18 shows why the church could not fall into apostasy, "I will build my church: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The critic claims that if there was an apostasy then the gates of hell would prevail against the church, thus there is no apostasy. As members of the LDS church we know that the gates of hell will not prevail in the war against Christ’s church, but we know that Satan can win certain battles against Christ’s church!

But what do the Scriptures say about an Apostasy! 

Paul warned Timothy, the first bishop of the Ephesians, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables"(2 Tim 4:2-4).  Again, in 1 Tim 1: 3-4 Paul says, "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightiest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith." Paul foretold that this body of saints would not hold to the doctrines that they had received.  He informed Timothy that they would teach other doctrines and turn from the truth of God unto Fables. This is a clear indication that the apostasy was already beginning among the church!

In Titus 1:9-11 Paul warns of those who would lead large groups into apostasy, "Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake." Many of the new converts to the church came from the Jewish sects. The book of Acts is full of stories of these Jewish converts teaching the Gentile converts doctrines that lead people away from the gospel of the Apostles (Examples: Acts 11:1-4, Acts 15:1-6, Acts 18:24-28-19:1-6, Acts 21:18-26).

We can see that the saints were instructed that certain men would creep in among their numbers who would turn the doctrines of Christ into something completely different, even unto the denying of who Christ was! Just look at the example in Jude 1:3-4, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." 

Paul echoes Jude's warning in Col 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." And in Heb 13:9 Paul says "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines." From these scriptures you can see the saints in the church began to teach one another different doctrines than what the Apostles were teaching. Throughout the Scriptures the Apostles have warned against those in the church who were leading the saints into apostasy!

For example, in Acts 20:28-30, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." 

  Paul later informs Timothy by revelation what will happen to the saints, 1 Tim 4:1-3 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." We can see this is exactly what happened.

In the following scriptures we can see the apostasy had already started in the church Gal 1:6-7 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ." Or 2 Cor 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." In both these scriptures it shows the willingness of the saints to embrace another gospel when the Apostles weren't present.

Peter tell us why it was so easy for the saints to embrace these other versions of the gospel, 2 Pet 2:1-3 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:" 

What were some of these “false teachers’” teaching that was so wrong?  1 Cor 15:1-2,12 Paul says “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?” These saints in Corinth were teaching that there was no resurrection even though they had been taught the resurrection by Paul. Here again is another sign that once the apostles were killed off, the church would be left to their own devices!

The early saints were watching for the return of Christ in their day. In response to a question about when Christ shall come again, Paul informs the Thessalonians, "Now we beseech you, brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."(2 Thes 2:1-3) 

Paul prophecies that before Christ returns to the earth the second time, that the falling away of the church would happen first! But with this falling away, God has promised that he would restore his church. In Acts 3:20-21 Peter prophesies of the return of Christ after the restoration of all things, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

After the apostles were killed, the church lost its oracles of truth. The church then went through the "Dark Ages," in which many doctrines crept into the church. During the 1800's, a boy (Joseph Smith) was seeking to know which church to join. Believing James 1:5, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God," Joseph went to some woods near his house and did just that. In answer to his prayer, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him. When Joseph asked his question, which church he should join, they answered him as follows, "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personages who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."(JSH 1:19)

After these events God opened the way for his Church to be restored on the earth again. It was once again to have apostles and prophets who could receive instruction from the Lord so that the doctrines of Christ could once again be taught. This is what the LDS people mean when we say that an apostasy has occurred. And this clearly explains why there are so many different Christian churches! Because if all the Christian churches believed the same doctrines they would all be one church, but they do not believe the same. So a good question to ask is "which one of them is right"? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the answer!

Adding To or Taking Away?

Conversations with a local Pastor#3.

During the discussion I had with a local pastor, our conversation was directed to Rev 22:18-19: "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life..." He believed that these verses meant that no one was able to add to or take away from the revealed word of the Bible. He claimed that this is expressly forbidden in the Bible, and used Revelation 22 as his only source.

This criticism is very old and has been beaten like a dead horse! But since the Pastor thought it was so important to bring up during our conversation, I thought I would once again confront this issue. Since Rev 22:18-19 is put at the very end of the entire Bible, it has proved too much of a temptation for those who do not believe in continuing revelation to leave alone. Those that claim this is God's final warning about adding or taking away any additional scriptures are disingenuous at best!

This same warning is repeated at least two other times in the scriptures.  Deut 4:2:"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." If the same view of Rev 22:18-19 is applied here then the Bible would only consist of the Torah! (The first five books of Moses) Yet, no critic would agree with such a limited Bible, and yet this is exactly what they want us to believe Rev 22:18-19 means! 

So what does Deut 4:2 and Rev 22:18-19 mean? Look at Prov 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Once again God is not saying that the Bible stops at the book of Proverbs, it means that the word of God ought not to be changed by men! (This is important because God can change his word).

So, was the canon of scriptures meant to end at some point? In Heb 13:8, the critic always reminds us that “Jesus Christ (is) the same yesterday, and today, and forever." If this is the case then why would God stop having men write down these experiences which become scripture to us?  He wouldn't! 

The critics who believe the canon of scripture is closed, are also very quick to announce that the Bible does not need any other information added to it.  Is this what the Bible teaches? Paul, in writing to the Colossians, informs them “and when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea."(Col 4:16) Where in the Bible is this epistle of the Laodiceans? It is not to be found in our current Bible and yet Paul put as much emphasis on this scripture of the Laodiceans as he did on the epistle of the Colossians. If the true letter of the Laodiceans was found, would the critics reject it?

Look at Jude 1:14: "and Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." We are left without this important book of scripture that was quoted by Jude. And in the epistle of 3 John 1:13-14 he said "I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee: But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face." Would not those items of instruction be just as important as this chapter in 3 John?

John also informs us in his gospel, "and many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book."(John 20:30) In the next chapter John tells us how many other signs Jesus gave: "and there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."(John 21:25) And this isn't all, Jesus continued to teach his apostles after he was resurrected "also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God."(Acts 1:3) According to the critic no one will ever know of these wonderful teachings of Jesus during these forty days, because the Bible cannot have this information added to it! From these verses we can see that the Bible doesn't contain a complete account of the works of God. Would the critic really deny themselves from having more of the miracles and teachings of Jesus? 

The Book of Mormon (another testament of Jesus Christ) prophet Nephi saw the attitude of the people in our day about additional scriptures and asked "wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?" Then Nephi continued "know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another."(2 Ne 29:8) 

The truth is that God has always spoken to his people and will continue to speak unto his people. And God will continue to make more scripture available to his people because "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."(2 Tim 3:16-17)

John was right when he said that "there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written...even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written"(John 21:25) The Book of Mormon claims to be only one of those books! The Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price claim to be just two more of those other books. This hardly seems like enough books to fill the world. The Lord warns those who reject receiving more of his word, "and he said unto them, take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath."(Mark 4:24-25)

The critic cannot show from the scriptures that the Lord intended to stop speaking to his people! Maybe the real problem is that they have just decided to stop listening!

Do Mormons believe that they can become Gods?

Conversations with a local pastor #2

During my recent conversation with a local pastor, we discussed a question I have frequently been asked: "Do Mormons believe that they will become Gods?"

My answer... of course we believe we can become gods, after all we believe mankind are children of God!

Many critics assume that because Mormons believe they can become gods that they will supplant God the Father, this is not the case! We believe that since we will live in eternity with God the Father, that he will continue to teach us as a Father would teach his children. And what will he be teaching us? How to become more like he is! 

The scriptures are clear on this point, and yet the traditions of men will not allow the critic's to accept the truths that are right in front of them! The scriptures teach that God wants men to become like he is.  "Be ye therefore perfect,even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"(Matt 5:48).  Now while perfection of man is not realistic by their own actions, with Jesus' atonement (his act of taking men's sins from them) men are made perfect before God. 


The Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) makes a bold statement about those who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and continue to follow his commands.  D&C132:20, "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." This scripture informs us that the servants of God will have no end, they shall be above all because all things are subject unto them, and they shall have all power and the angels shall be subject unto them. (see the following scriptures John 10:34-36, John 6:47, Rev 3:21, 1Cor 6:3). 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all people are literally spirit sons and daughters of God. "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"(Heb 12:9) And look at Acts 17:28-29 "For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." As God's children we will grow to become what he is and inherit all that he will give us!

Just look at what the scriptures teach about what the children of God will inherit, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."(Rom 8:16-17) God has promised here that since we are the children of God that we will be heirs of God and that we will share as a joint-heir with Christ! So what will Gods children inherit? John in Rev 21:7 says "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." When God says they "shall inherit all things," this includes even the throne of God! Rev 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me(Christ) in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." God and Christ according to these verses are sharing their power, authority and glory with those who are the sons and daughters of God.

The critic will say that man can never become a god, and that the devil invented the lie that man can become God in the garden of Eden. The basis for this idea comes from Gen 3:4-5. The devil lies to Eve telling her "ye shall not surely die," if you eat the fruit of the tree. In verse 5 the devil says, "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." The critic stops here and inserts their traditions that man cannot become God and so the devil must be lying to Eve. But if the critic would read 18 verses more they would find that this wasn't a lie. Gen 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." So we see that Satan didn't lie to the woman about becoming like God, because God himself confirmed the truth, that "the man (has) become as one of us."(Gen 3:22)

But how can sinful man become a god? By becoming one with Christ and God! 

The Critic will tell us that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not three Gods but that these three make one God. (for an answer to this see my post on the Trinity) If these three individuals can all be God because they are one, (John 10:30) then why would the critic deny believers from becoming gods if we were one with God. Just read what Christ prayed to his Father in John 17:20-23 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me that they may be made perfect in one." Wow! Christ asks God to make those who believe in him to become "one" as the Father and Son are one! Christ even shares his glory with his believers so that the believers "may be one, even as we(Father&Son) are one."(John 17:22) It is also of interest that Christ here claims his believers will "be made perfect in one!" And in Heb 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren."

The Psalmist tells us "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods."(Ps 82:1-2) Who are these gods mentioned in Psalms 82? Verse 6-7 has the answers for us, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." The Lord viewed these judges of Israel, these sons of God as gods! What is interesting about these verses is that Jesus himself uses these verses to prove he was the Son of God. "The Jews answered him, saying,For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man makest thyself God."(John 10:33) The Jews were trying to accuse Jesus of being a Godmaker in this verse.  His reply was "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?... Say ye of him...thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"(John 10:34-36) Jesus showed that God meant for Psalms 82 to refer to his believers as gods.

Look at what Paul said in relation to these scriptures, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."(Phil 2:5-6) According to Paul we ought to, as Christ did, not think "it robbery to be equal with God." This is exactly what the LDS people do, we understand that God created us to become more like them, to become "one" with him.

Some of the critics claim that those who believe they can become gods will not need or recognize God anymore. They pretend that it will lessen God to have others become like he is! Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Mormon people will always serve and reverence God the Father in his proper role. Jesus Christ showed us how the Sons of God could become equal with God and still reverence the Father. According to Paul in 1 Cor 15:23-24,27-28, "But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." Jesus though he was God, always recognized the Father as his God "...go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.(John 20:17)

Despite what the critics say, we can see that the scriptures do teach that men can become gods! But will mankind let go of their traditions and embrace what the scriptures teach?

Apostles and Prophets!

Conversations with a local Pastor #1

This post addresses the first of three issues that were brought up by the pastor of a local born-again church. I thought that it might be useful to share them with you, since he found it important enough to bring them up during our conversation. Some of the other items that we discussed during our two and half hour meeting were subjects for which I had already created blog posts! So, I will not recreate them again at this time. I hope you find the next three post valuable in your attempts to share your LDS beliefs with others.

One of the things that the pastor stated was that our belief in apostles and prophets today is not scriptural because, according to him, apostles were established as a one-time use and then discontinued.

His claims for the discontinuing of prophets was found in Heb 1:1-2; "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son." But the LDS people believe this scripture just as it reads with no additional interpretations needed. God has spoken by the prophets and God has spoken to us by the mouth of his Son, but this doesn't mean that God will not continue to speak by the prophets or by those apostles whom he called to lead his church. The Pastor's claim for no more apostles had no scriptural reference! He informed me that since Paul and John called no more apostles, "God meant for them to be used as a transition from Old law to New law." He continued saying,"once the apostles established the Bible and set pastors in churches there was no more need for apostles!" The Pastor could not give any scriptural basis for his belief.

The LDS people "believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth." (The sixth article of faith.)   

What do the scriptures teach about prophets and apostles?

No believer in the scriptures can doubt that the Lord used prophets to teach the people of God through out the Old Testament, they conveyed the mind and will of the Lord! We can see how important they were to the work of God by reading Amos 3:7: "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." They were the organizational heads of the church of God, such examples can be seen in Moses, Joshua, Samuel, etc....  During the life of Christ, he came to fulfill the scriptures! So during his life he would give new commands to his church, such as a new sacrifice for sin (Christ), a new day to worship (Sunday instead of Saturday), new dietary laws (leaving the law of Moses but commanding not to be Drunk etc..), and yes even new leadership for his church! (moving single prophets to a collection of apostles!)

Luke 6:13 says "He called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles." Again in Mark 3:14-15 "and he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, and to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils." Why did Jesus ordain these apostles? The scriptures teach:  "and no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God"(Heb 5:4).  So the apostles were ordained with power to perform all the miracles that were needed and to establish the church through their preaching.

Did Jesus mean that no one else should ever be called to the  apostleship as my pastor friend suggested?

Judas was one of the twelve, he betrayed Jesus, and then committed suicide, this left only eleven witnesses of Christ. If the pastor was right this would have been a good place to see a decline in the number of apostles, since they were to be phased out! But the record in Acts tells a different story. "These men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection" (Acts 1:21-22). Acts 1:23-24,26 "And they appointed two,..Barsabas,...and Matthias. and they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, and they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." This was of course to fulfill the scriptures that another would take Judas' place. So, this of course would return the number of apostles to twelve, and then if the pastor was right from this point on no more apostles would be called! 

But the scriptures are in complete disagreement with my friend on this point because Matthias was not the only apostle called after Judas. The apostle James, the brother of John, was also killed (Acts 12:1-2). In Acts 15:13 we see another apostle called James instructing the church.  Fortunately, Paul informs us that this James the apostle was "the Lord's brother,"(Gal 1:19) he was called after James' (the brother of John) death. Speaking of Paul, we know that he was ordained as an apostle at the same time as Barnabas. In Acts 13:1-3 "there were in the church...certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas...and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work where unto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away." Acts 14:14 which shows us they were ordained Apostles. These scriptural examples clearly show that apostles were meant to be called to replace the apostles which had passed on. But where is the scripture that says no more apostles will be called to lead the church? Or should the example of Acts 1:21-26 not be followed anymore? The answer: there is no scripture repealing the use of Apostles.

The scriptures instead show many examples of men being called to continue the office of apostle. Paul (one of the apostles called after the original twelve) tells us how the Lord had organized his church many times, "God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers." Eph 2:20 "(ye) are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Or Eph 4:11-13 "and he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teacher; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; Till we all come in the unity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man."

The Lord instructed his apostles after his resurrection to " go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature"(Mark16:15).  This command of the Lord has never been rescinded or changed according to the scriptures, and by the examples of the additional apostles who were called, such as Paul, they have continued to heed this command of the Lord! 

The Pastor was correct that the apostles were killed off and John was the last recorded apostle of the Bible.  The LDS believe that this led the Christian churches from a "unity of faith" to an "apostasy" (lack of direct communication from God; no more apostles or prophets).  The Mormon people believe that God would have to once again establish apostles and prophets in the Latter-days.  

The LDS people are among a slim group of Christian churches that even believe in the scriptural necessity of having apostles to guide the Lord's church. Since the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the Lord has had apostles in it. D&C 20:2-3 informs us that "Joseph Smith, Jun ...was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church; And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church." From the early days of the Mormon church until today the Lord has continued to call a quorum (in other words a group) of twelve "called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world-thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling."(D&C107:23)

During my conversation with the pastor he asked me "how could you be a Mormon, coming from the Bible belt of the South?" That question is one of the easiest I have ever had to answer: It is because it is the Lord's church upon this earth, and it continues to follow his pattern of having apostles and prophets etc... who lead and guide his church during these dark and final days upon the earth before his coming! 

The question I asked the pastor that I never got an answer to was: how can you claim to believe the Bible alone for your authority and not have apostles and prophets leading the church as the Bible shows you should?